E for Effort
The Giants depth, graded:
Majors - B-
High minors - D- (No more Kanoodler)
Low minors - C (Sandoval, maybe Witter)
First base:
Majors - F
High minors - F-
Low minors - D+ (This grade goes way up if D'Alessio hits well in A-ball and if Villalona moves to first)
Second base:
Majors - B-
High minors - C (Velez, Bergolla)
Low minors - C- (Denker, Sanders)
Shortstop:
Majors - D
High minors - D- (De la Rosa? Figueroa?)
Low minors - B (Burriss, Noonan, Schoop, Culberson, Bocock)
Third base:
Majors - ζ
High minors - Þ
Low minors - Þ+ (The "plus" is in case Villalona sticks. I don't know what those characters are, but I'm assuming they're lower than "Z".)
Corner outfield:
Majors - D+ (Winn, Roberts)
High minors - B- (Schierholtz, Lewis, Bowker, Ortmeier...for the purposes of this depth chart, I'm including current major leaguers like Lewis and Ortmeier here, which kind of makes "High minors" synonymous with "young and ready.")
Low minors - D- (Copeland, Baker, Neal)
Center field:
Majors - B (Winn, Roberts, Davis...this assumes that Winn and Roberts will play their natural position, which they won't. But if we needed them to, we have the depth...)
High minors - B- (Lewis, Timpner, Velez)
Low minors - C- (Richardson, McBryde, Jordan)
Starting pitching:
Majors - A- (This grade includes Misch, Sanchez, and Correia)
High minors - D+ (Kinney, Palmer, Begg, Pereira, McKae)
Low minors - A (Alderson, Sosa, Bumgarner, Tanner, Pucetas, Snyder, Martinez)
Relief pitching:
Majors - C-
High minors - C- (Sadler, Matos, Hedrick, Anderson)
Low minors - C- (Romo, Cowart, Wilding, Joaquin, Pichardo)
Low minors = Rookie and A-ball last season
I'm grading the major league talent relative to the rest of the league. It's hard for me to do that with the minor league talent, as I'm not that knowledgeable with the systems of other teams, so slap me around if I'm way off.
This isn't my masterpiece organizational thesis; this is just my best guess. If the rest of y'all can whip it into shape, it could be a handy guide for the offseason. As in, "Why would we trade Bengie Molina for an A-ball pitcher when we have no catching depth in the high minors and pressing needs elsewhere in the organization?"
Maybe it'll help. Maybe you're already dozed off. Dunno.
Your thoughts, if you would.
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Comments
Re: E for Effort
by sharksrog on Nov 29, 2007 1:10 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by Mordy From Monsey on
Nov 29, 2007 6:35 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Roger on
Nov 29, 2007 8:14 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Roger on
Nov 30, 2007 6:54 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by RichH on
Nov 30, 2007 10:05 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Roger on
Nov 30, 2007 10:31 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
This board, on the other hand, is mostly filled with reasonable people looking to discuss their favorite team, warts and all, in a friendly environment. And if you wish to hear nothing but blind praise for the Giants, you might first change your tagline, where you insult our illustrious GM.
by JRPhillips on
Nov 29, 2007 10:03 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Mordy From Monsey on
Nov 30, 2007 4:04 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
And while we're here, I agree I'd like to see the youngins play. But our brilliant history of developing youth has left me, and many others, skeptical. Still, I'd rather see the young than the old and infirmed playing for the Giants.
by JRPhillips on
Nov 30, 2007 9:28 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Unlike the Giants' veterans.
It also made the 'th' sound, so it looks to me like Grant is giving the raspberry to the third basemen in our system. I think that definitely ranks below a Z.
by Ott on Nov 29, 2007 1:13 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by EliminateMe on
Nov 29, 2007 3:44 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by sb on
Nov 29, 2007 6:27 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by EliminateMe on
Nov 29, 2007 7:58 PM PST
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Huh huh huh
Huh huh huh
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Nov 29, 2007 1:21 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by leftymalo on Nov 29, 2007 1:22 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
Also -- and this may be more controversial -- I don't think our rotation warrants an A- either. We've got two nice pitchers in Cain and Lincecum, a super-lucky (to this point) average one in Lowry, a flat-out average one in Zito, and a whole bunch of question marks in the Sanchez/Misch/Correia pileup. I think a B+ is actually slightly charitable. When tongues around the league wag about the Giants' enviable rotation, they're really only wagging about Lincecain.
Final note: Bumgarner and Alderson are high-school pitchers. This cannot be underlined emphatically enough. These guys break down and wash out at monstrous rates, so much so that sabermetric-minded clubs essentially refuse to draft them with premium picks. Consider them high-upside, high-risk lottery tickets...but not the basis for optimism about the level of pitching in our low minors.
by drelmoraisin on Nov 29, 2007 1:30 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
Regarding the SP, I think that most teams in the league would be ecstatic to have "average" in their three and four spots. It's a pretty rare thing to have rotation spots 1-4 filled with average to above-average, and the fifth starter pool will produce something closer to average than abysmal.
It isn't just high school pitching that breaks down and washes out; it's all young pitching in the low minors. That grade isn't saying "Yippee! We're going to be awesome in five years!", it's just noting that the Giants have a lot of low-level pitchers who appear promising. It wouldn't make sense to exclude high-school pitchers from that list.
And if you haven't read Baseball Prospectus's series on the draft, I can't recommend it enough. The anti-HS pitching faction hasn't been around for a couple of years now. College pitchers are about the same risk.
by Grant on
Nov 29, 2007 1:44 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
"Two nice pitchers"? Most of the teams in the league would kill to have "two nice pitchers" like them. They are two potential aces, Cain has already put up with a nice 2007, and Lincecum looks ready with a 67% Dominant starts (using PQS methodology) in 2007 (top pitchers have over 50%, the elite have over 70%).
And people always look at Lowry as average because he doesn't have overpowering stuff, but he seems to suffer like Rueter did from that in terms of respect. His ERA has been sub 4.00 throughout his career and he was only over 4 in 2006 because he apparently decided to pitch with pain which eventually DLed him, as his ERA was sub 4.00 going into September, then he got blasted. Look at how many starters are actually under 4.00 in ERA and you will begin to understand how good Lowry is, particularly if he is our #4 starter.
I'll admit Zito had a horrible year in 2007 with us, but after Bochy made him relieve that one game, in 11 games, he threw 69 IP, had a 3.52 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, 2.0 K/BB (min you want starters to have), 5.9 K/9 (bad, yes), 3.0 BB/9 (max you want pitchers to have). That's not too far from what he did in 2005-2006 with the A's, adjusted for pitching in the NL where there are easy outs to be had with the 9th spot, the pitcher. Again, sub 4.00 ERA pitchers are not that common, and he's essentially our #3 starter.
Lastly, most team's #5 starter are no better than Sanchez, Misch, Correia, and at least Correia has a history of pitching OK as a starter, not great, not good, but good for a #5 starter, I think he has proven that he can be an acceptable #5 starter, look at his stats as a starter with the Giants: he has a 4.33 ERA with a 1.46 WHIP in 27 career starts. That's better than some team's #3 starter and he would be our #5.
All in all, we have a great rotation and deserves that A-, which is only a "-" because Lincecum and Zito has to prove that they can do it over a season for the Giants in 2008.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on
Nov 29, 2007 4:57 PM PST
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I got yer 3B right here
Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy
by hairball on Nov 29, 2007 1:38 PM PST 0 recs
Re: I got yer 3B right here
Please note the sig line. Not exactly unbiased.
by nvsfg on
Nov 29, 2007 2:55 PM PST
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Re: I got yer 3B right here
Downs is a stud, it will be fun to see how he does next season. Played 3B, 2B and 1B and played them all well.
by RichH on
Nov 29, 2007 4:44 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy
by hairball on Nov 29, 2007 1:49 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
- How do you see Velez (High Minors) as only a C at 2B if you see Frandsen (Majors) as a B-? To me Velez has way more upside then Frandsen.
- How do you see Ortmeier (High Minors) as a F- at 1B if you see him as a B- at Corner Outfield?
- Does it really make since to drop Winn and Roberts all the way to a D+ from a B just for moving from Centerfield to Corner Outfield?
- How do you see the Majors Relief Pitching as being a C- (Below Average)? I see it as a B- (above average) I think the stats support my position far better then they do yours. For example Fangraphs shows that the Giants' Bullpen last year had an 18.58 BRAA which is just 9.9 less the the Rotation's 28.48 BRAA.
by giantsrainman on Nov 29, 2007 2:04 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
- Velez might have more upside -- though I don't think that's a given -- but Frandsen is more likely to reach his peak. If Frandsen were in AA/AAA like Velez was last season, I have a feeling he'd be held in higher regard. Frandsen was rushed pretty quickly through the system.
- Ortmeier was just a name to tack on at the end of the corner outfielder list. He's about a D- as a potential RF and an F as a potential 1B, but that's a post for another time.
- I think so. Maybe C- would have been better, but there is a huge difference in value between a CF who hits like Winn and a RF who hits like Winn.
- I don't think Walker is a 1.26 ERA guy or that Wilson is a 2.28 guy (yet), and Chulk isn't guaranteed to come back. Those were three of the biggest contributors to the Fangraphs figure.
by Grant on
Nov 29, 2007 2:15 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Where we do still disagree is 3 and 4. To me anything more the a full grade difference (B down to C) for moving from CF to Corner Outfield is too much. I also think you are forgeting that there is a quanity component as well as quality component to BRAA. Yes, Wilson's and Walker's ERAs will go up but they can still achieve the same BRAA with ERAs in the mid 3's if they pitch 60+ innings (especially if these innings are the 9th and 8th) respectively. I see no reason why we can't expect to have 5 of our projected releivers achieve BRAAs above 4 again in 2008 like we did in 2007.
by giantsrainman on
Nov 29, 2007 2:47 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
I wouldn't say it's a full grade for changing positions. Grant counts Davis as a MLB player. So our center field possibilities are Robert/Winn/Davis (above average), while our corner outfield ones are Robert/Winn (way below average). It's basically a hole grade for changing position, plus half a grade for adding Davis. at least that's how I see it.
by Cookyman on
Nov 29, 2007 3:18 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by giantsrainman on
Nov 29, 2007 3:52 PM PST
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You are missing the point.
by giantsrainman on
Nov 29, 2007 4:20 PM PST
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Re: You are missing the point.
by lincysgiants on
Nov 29, 2007 9:46 PM PST
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Re: You are missing the point.
by giantsrainman on
Nov 29, 2007 9:55 PM PST
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Re: You are missing the point.
by zenbitz on
Nov 30, 2007 9:33 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Cookyman on
Nov 29, 2007 4:15 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by giantsrainman on
Nov 29, 2007 4:23 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Anyway, this is going nowhere; You think the difference between our CF and RF/LF depth is one grade. I think it's bigger. Lets just move on.
by Cookyman on
Nov 29, 2007 4:43 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
What I see has potential. It's not like he wasn't a prospect before, he was considered a future starter with 20-20 potential in the outfield during his early minors.
And he hit well in two separate stints last season. It's not like Rajai Davis who had a hot month then an equally and oppositely cold month. Also, he did it while playing sparsely and as a replacement in his first stint, then hit better in his second stint when he got to start more and regularly. Under all those varying conditions, he stayed steady as a hitter. Small samples, yes, but still, he did it.
Plus his overall numbers was good, his OPS+ was 107 and his HR rate was 26 AB/HR, or about 20+ HR per season. If you look at all the preferred Arizona young hitters, they are either around 100 OPS+ or severely below.
So why not start him at 1B with Aurilia as his backup if he should falter or fail? We need to find out what he can do, he has shown some potential, and unless we can get a 1B in trade, which will be tough since we need a 3B even more badly in trade, why not let him see if he can seize the job? Why not reward his good play last season?
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on
Nov 29, 2007 5:39 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by zenbitz on
Nov 30, 2007 9:33 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Quantity over quality?
by ResDog on Nov 29, 2007 2:18 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by Grant on
Nov 29, 2007 2:24 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
In the meanwhile, I'll note that I'm Rob's publisher on the PlayStation magazine -- you should definitely hook up with him on some freelance. Love your blog -- I actually turned Rob onto it. Keep it up! ;)
by drelmoraisin on Nov 29, 2007 2:27 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by Grant on
Nov 29, 2007 2:54 PM PST
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But then you miss all the pointless rambling....
That reminds me...who wants to talk about an earthquake in the middle of this diary? Diary Hijack anyone?
by WalrusMan on
Nov 29, 2007 3:17 PM PST
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But then you miss all our pointless rambling
by howtheyscored on
Nov 29, 2007 3:27 PM PST
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Earthquake
by wilriv21 on
Nov 29, 2007 3:36 PM PST
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Re: Earthquake
by nvsfg on
Nov 29, 2007 5:12 PM PST
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Re: But
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on
Nov 29, 2007 5:40 PM PST
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No...
by WalrusMan on
Nov 29, 2007 11:13 PM PST
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I like that place name...
by WalrusMan on
Nov 29, 2007 11:21 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Pfft!
by Goofus on
Nov 29, 2007 3:57 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Actually, now that I look at it that way, it's a wonder he hasn't banned us yet.
by EliminateMe on
Nov 29, 2007 4:48 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by slojoe on Nov 29, 2007 3:08 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by kwyjibo on Nov 29, 2007 4:15 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by RichH on Nov 29, 2007 4:48 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by EliminateMe on
Nov 29, 2007 4:53 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
That kind of name just can't have a future as a Giant.
by howtheyscored on
Nov 29, 2007 5:10 PM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by RichH on
Nov 30, 2007 9:06 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
by Kid Fresh on Nov 29, 2007 4:59 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by NearestNorwich on Nov 29, 2007 7:57 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by campanari on Nov 29, 2007 10:24 PM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
Also, a good portion of the Giants' success at the minor-league level has been the pitching, which I give some credit here. And I'll always give credit to the pipeline of young pitching that makes this major league roster even half-interesting.
by Grant on
Nov 30, 2007 12:51 AM PST
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Re: E for Effort
Also, I'd give a starting rotation of Cain/Zito/Lince/Lowry/Correia a rating of A.. there isn't anything much better in the majors
by lmaozedong on Nov 30, 2007 11:55 AM PST 0 recs
Re: E for Effort
by lmaozedong on
Nov 30, 2007 11:56 AM PST
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Farm system overall
by theclap on Dec 5, 2007 2:45 AM PST 0 recs







